On a jam-packed show, we discuss the latest drama with the Chinese men’s hockey team – who may still get kicked out of the Olympics (0:45). China gets its first F1 driver, as Zhou Guanyu joins Valtteri Bottas at Alfa Romeo for next season (6:07). Then we turn to a China tennis story that’s gone global: What’s going on with Péng Shuài 彭帅, and what does this mean for the sport of tennis in China? (10:26), [note: segment recorded prior to release of Peng’s alleged statement]. And, we talk about China’s latest results in their FIFA World Cup qualifying matches and where it leaves them. Spoiler: they’re still not going to qualify for Qatar (16:50).
This week, we also speak to Rowan Simons. He’s a familiar figure in football in China. In 2008, he wrote Bamboo Goalposts: One Man’s Quest to Teach the People’s Republic of China to Love Football and founded ClubFootball, one of the largest youth soccer programs in Beijing. We talk about: the number of pitches built in China since a 50-point reform plan was initiated in 2015 (20:11), the issue with the campus football project (23:23), how bureaucracy hinders essential long-term planning in the sport (25:49), the different generations of football coaches in China and their different mentalities (31:16), why parents are the hope for Chinese football (33:34), the impact of the gaokao [China’s university entrance exam] on sports (35:20), whether China is potentially ready and willing to host a World Cup in 2034 (37:17), and why Rowan is cheering for China to qualify for the World Cup — and why he isn’t (43:16).
A transcript of the podcast follows below!
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Haig Balian
Welcome to the China Sports Insider Podcast today on a jam-packed show what is going on with the International Ice Hockey Federation? China gets its first f1 driver. The Women’s Tennis Association wants some answers from China. What can we expect? And we interview China football expert, Rohan Simon s Mark, how are you?
Mark Dreyer
I am well, still as last week in my quarantine isolation, but excited to be getting out any day now. And then I’ll have another week in Shanghai before hopefully coming back to Beijing as long as there aren’t any more cases in which case, I’m stuck here for a little longer.
Haig Balian
Well, let’s hope that doesn’t happen. Let’s hope that we get you back in Beijing soon. Okay, the first story, Mark, I don’t I don’t even know where to start with this because this is extremely confusing to me. So last week, as we talked about here, Luke Tardif, the new president of the International Ice Hockey Federation said unequivocally China would compete at the Olympics. Here’s exactly what he said. Let me read this to you. “To be clear, the IIHF is not going to remove the Chinese team from the Olympic Games. The status of the national men’s national team as a host nation, participants in the Olympic Ice Hockey Tournament was confirmed by Congress and remains unchanged”. Today. Tardif told Canada sports net” I didn’t want to do a diplomatic earthquake alone just coming as a new president” already said “Norway is ready”. Mark, I have one question for you. What?
Mark Dreyer
This is been ridiculous. I first started writing about this in May of this year. And the whole thing has been on again off again. So many times where we I mean like we thought it was finally done and dusted. And we were just waiting for the Chinese Olympic roster to be released, which is supposed to be any day now. And now they’re saying no, they’re going to make another decision on November 25. So what is happening this week, and as of Wednesday, is when we’re recording this week, tonight’s there, the second of two games in Russia that’s being evaluated by some officials from the IIHF. And based on that they will either decide that China can play and if they can, which of the Chinese players are going to be eligible. And that’s a whole big thing, because some of those players have previously represented other countries. Some of those players haven’t quite played with the Chinese team for long enough. So there’s going to need to be a little bit of easing of the eligibility requirements. But more dramatically, if they decide they are not up to the standard necessary. They’re going to kick them out. And Norway is in. Tardif said Norway stands ready. I mean, that is that is a worrying statement from the Chinese side. If if you’re watching this
Haig Balian
in Kunlun Red Star’s his first game, they came down from four zero to tie the game. So they tied the game and they lost in overtime. Hardly a worrying sort of result. And in my opinion,
Mark Dreyer
yeah, the first of the two games that are you know, being evaluated in Russia this week. Yeah, that’s right, right. I mean, what are they going to find? What information are they going to get from from the second game that they don’t already have? Whether they win, whether they lose, you know, like, it’s not going to drastically change the bigger picture. We know who the players are, who are eligible, they either need to decide whether they’re going to give them passports or not. And then they need to decide, is that team going to embarrass them? And are they prepared to live with the results? These are questions that should have been answered months and months and months ago, if not years ago. But hey, oh, yeah, it’s three months to go. We still don’t know what’s happening. It’s ridiculous.
Haig Balian
The question I had was, I mean, what what could have happened in the last week to sway Tardif? I mean, there was been a bunch of stories in international media, could that have swayed him?
Mark Dreyer
I think it’s I mean, he actually, I mean, I’ve had some inquiries, I spoke to Canadian television. Last week, there’s been some interest from from particularly from North America, they’re beginning to hone in on the Olympics. And, and this story is now finally on their radar. The one thing I think that that’s changed, and we talked about this last week, Tardif is the new guy in town, so he can basically he still has a little bit of time where he can say, this was not a decision made on my watch. I think it’s wrong. Let’s reverse decision before it’s too late. And you know, he can kind of bring some changes the new regime, so we can still dump it on on the previous guy Rene Fasel, who was kind of leading the double ihf previously now, it sounds like Tardif has much better links with with Norway, and Fasel had links with China. Again, not not a great situation. If you’re a Chinese hockey fan, you want to see the men’s team in and at this point, we do like of course we did. Like we know they’re not going to do well and it’s going to be a bit of a mess, but it will be so unfair. That after everything that’s the back and forth have gone through to kick them out now with less than three months to go
Haig Balian
Yeah, so on that note, so you were lucky, as you mentioned, you were on the national, which is the National nightly news program on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. You are great, by the way. So it was a piece on Kunlun Red Star and the mostly heritage players that are going to be on China’s team. And this this aired just just a few hours ago, by the way, so we’re taping on Wednesday afternoon, China time. And you could tell that the players there still seem to think that China would be at the Olympics. beyond anything else, it just seems cruel. So just just make a decision. get this over with pull the bandaid.
Mark Dreyer
This is this is like this is a staggering development. And there’s been a lot this year but I was talking to members of the team like yesterday, people working with the team and they’re basically just like, well, we know everything apart from just a couple of details. There’s a couple of decisions that need to be made on some of the players because eligibility but basically we were ready to go we’re just ironing out the final you know, names on the roster. Now suddenly, it’s like what roster. So anyway, November 25 is D Day again until the next one, but that’s that’s the latest that we have.
Haig Balian
Can we talk about something that makes me feel a little less irked? Yes, I am. Okay. China has its first F1 driver. His name is Zhou Guanyu and here’s his message on Xinhua news.
Zhou Guanyu
Hi guys. It’s going Zhou here. I’m super honored to become the Formula One driver for alpha romeo racing oland team. Formula One is always my dream since I was a child you know, I’ve been pushing so hard together with my team I cool all the time, try to you know, push over the limit. Try to reach that goal and I’m just so thankful become too so very thanks for all the guys who support me all the way through my journey so far. Next year is gonna be a super difficult and also important year for me. So my plan, my target will be try to learn as much as I could not just with the team, also with my very good experience teammate Valtteri Bottas. And that is helping out to put some great results on the table in the in the next year. And make sure you guys follow me all the races next year, see you guys on the track soon.
Haig Balian
So Mark, who is Zhou Gyanyuand why is this a big deal?
Mark Dreyer
Well, simply but he is a future superstar. I honestly believe that I had the privilege to commentate on the Asian F3 Championship earlier this year, which he won. And they had, they had five race weekends. Basically back to back compounded into it. It’s a month-long thing in the Middle East because of travel restrictions. That’s where a lot of the racing was happening. And this guy is great. Not only is he good on the track, but he’s just a delight to interview and so on and off the track. You could make a case of that, you know, he’s not the best driver in the wings that there’s another guy, Piastri in Formula Two who’s currently leading the formula two championships, Zhou Guanyu is second at the moment. Maybe Piastri is going to be a little bit miffed that he’s not getting the seats. But this is not a question of you know, it’s Chinese money buying the seats, as we’ve seen many drivers at the back of the grid in f1 happening before so here’s the legit talent. He’s been racing in Europe since his his middle teenage years. And he has performed at every level. So I’m fantastically excited to see him get the seat. So he was with the Alpine team, formerly the Renault team with Fernando Alonso was a sort of development driver this year. And the worry was that there wasn’t going to be a seat for him in this team. So what has happened is he’s switching over to Alfa Romeo. So he’s cut all ties with Alpine. So that is why this has opened up, but it’s good for them. It’s good for the sport, it’s I have to say that there is a bit of a disappointment. They’ve already said that the the Chinese Grand Prix in 2022 will not will not happen because of COVID but, on the plus side, they have extended the the Chinese F1 deal until 2025. So he will get the chance to race in his in his home Grand Prix. In the early you know, 2005 to 2010. That kind of golden period. A lot of fans came to Shanghai to and to watch the Grand Prix and it kind of tailed off a little bit, but hopefully this can get it right back going. It’s great for the sponsors. It’s like I said, I’m super happy and and it couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy.
Haig Balian
So so in that message, Zhou mentioned that, you know, next year is going to be a hard year for him. What do we know about this new team? Can we what kind of results can we expect next year?
Mark Dreyer
Look, I mean, the fact that he is his go-to seat on the grid is impressive and stuff. He’s racing alongside Valtteri Bottas, who is Lewis Hamilton’s teammate right now at Mercedes. So that’s the kind of caliber of driver he is he’s going to be up against. Be very, very interesting to see how he compares. Obviously, Hamilton is is very much the leading driver and, you know, Joe will be expected to play sort of the backup role. But of course, there’s always battles within a team as well. He’s not going to be winning races, he’s not gonna be winning the titles anytime soon. But if he can perform and if he can kind of outperform what that car is expected to do, then who knows what could happen in a few years f1 Of course, is is so much about the team. But hey, he’s got a seat. And that’s fantastic. This is a huge we’ve been waiting for this moment for decades.
Haig Balian
Big news in the tennis world this week. What is going on Mark?
Mark Dreyer
Well, a little under two weeks ago, Chinese tennis player punctuate made some very serious allegations about a former Chinese leader on Weibo. Now, the post was quickly deleted. And we hadn’t really heard anything since now. The Daily Mail of all people not my favorite newspaper, they’d wrote a story saying where is Peng Shuai? Why haven’t we heard from her? And I was like, What on earth you thinking when you you know, after news like this, she’s not going to be shouting from the rooftops. But I think what this piece did, is that it actually a lot of tennis players started to say, hey, what’s what’s going on? Why haven’t we heard from her and we’ve had some statements from the WTA. That’s the Women’s Tennis Association, the men’s tour, which is the ATP and then a lot of current and former players, Martina Navratilova. Billie Jean King, Chris Everett Novak Djokovic, they’ve all been talking about this, and Naomi Osaka as well, today. Yeah. I mean, this is really like everyone is talking about this story in the tennis world. Now, again, as I said, it’s no surprise that we haven’t heard from her Do we know where she is? Well, there’s rumors flying about nothing that we can substantiate here. But what I think is most interesting is that the WTA, obviously bongs main tour now it should be said she, she hasn’t played for a while. And she basically retired because she’s had some pretty serious injuries. And she’s mid-30s. But she’s still well known and liked by all the people on the tour. And the tour has basically said, We need answers from China. Can you guarantee, you know, her safety, what’s going on? We need an investigation into this. They didn’t stop that. They said, We are going into this with our eyes open. I’m paraphrasing here. But basically, we are aware of what this might do to our business by effectively calling China out on this. And we’re prepared to effectively not have tennis tournaments in China. Now. In some sports, you’d be like, well, that’s okay. In tennis, like half the year is in China. Not quite but 11 tournaments so this is huge,
Haig Balian
including the WTA finals in Shenzen. Yes.
Mark Dreyer
Yeah, the biggest event of the year outside the grand slams, but the season-ending finale, when that was announced, in partnership with a real estate developer called gem Dale, that was the richest tournament in the world, men’s or women’s, like absolutely, absolutely crazy. $14 million, which is more than the men’s we’re getting for their season-ending ATP finals.
Haig Balian
You know, in the last couple of years, of course, WTA hasn’t come to China at all. And I and I mean, are they sort of realizing there’s life outside of China?
Mark Dreyer
I think that’s exactly right. You know, two years ago, I, I think they were so embedded in the fabric of, of China with their tour, given those 11 tournament’s but having, you know, with China still at COVID zero, and basically canceling all international sports events, the rest of the sports world has moved on. So the WTA has learnt to live without China. And, again, I’m not going to speculate whether they would have put this statement out, you know, a year ago, two years ago, right, and they’re doing it differently. But I think it’s much easier from a business perspective to think you know, what, we can have other tournaments. We can feel the calendar, and we’re not we’re not done if if China decides it really doesn’t like the things that we’re saying, then, you know, what, life is still gonna go on?
Haig Balian
Mark, what happens next?
Mark Dreyer
Well, so far, there’s been no reaction from the Chinese side. It’s kind of unclear that who exactly the WTA is, is expecting a response from it came up at the Foreign Ministry press conference, and the response there was that it’s not a diplomatic matter. So no real response. The one thing I want to say about this is is there’s parallels to what happened with the NBA when the Daryl Morey tweet devastated their business in China two years ago. The difference there is that that was a huge story in China. Everyone was talking about that and a lot of anti-NBA feelings came from Chinese basketball fans. The difference here is that this story has been completely eradicated from Chinese media, no one’s talking about it. So the vast majority of people don’t know that is happening. So that’s the big difference. And until China’s ready to host sports events, again, there’s no real decision that needs to be made. So I think you know 2022 is already looking tough for tournaments in China. And then maybe things will have died down. I mean, again too early to say but I’m not an expecting We’re gonna hear either from Park or from the Chinese side anytime soon.
Haig Balian
Mark you you teed this up last week. But you know, the Chinese men’s national football team played two qualifiers this past week. To have a chance to qualify they really needed wins. Instead, they earned a pair of one draws against Oman and against Australia. You watched the games. What did you think?
Mark Dreyer
Yeah, well, slightly against my better nature. I did stay up to watch the game. Again, let’s
Haig Balian
just say these games started at 11 pm. That’s way past my bedtime. This is versus
Mark Dreyer
it’s also because it’s also because it’s ridiculously hot in the Middle East where they’re playing. So they’re deliberately have very, very late kickoffs, basically the polar opposite of the other game we were talking about before the show hide where your Canadian team was in minus, I think 14 degrees Celsius in Edmonton against the Mexicans. I mean, come on, they only beat them to one after, like playing in the snow. Because it’d be more than that. No,
Haig Balian
I can spend about 10 minutes just talking about this Mark. This is not the CONCACAF show, I would play in the northernmost capital in an outdoor stadium in the middle of November. I think that’s genius. But back to China though. Wow. I mean, it’s it’s I suppose you could say like a result against Australia. Any result against Australia is great, but it’s just it just seems like too little too late.
Mark Dreyer
Yeah, this sort of limping to to to missing out. To be honest, as expected, no one was was expecting that China was going to qualify onto these groups. The game itself was weird for a couple of reasons. Australia scored first and then the Chinese equalizer. It was it was a penalty from handball, but it was one of those ones with var, where the play no one had called for it for no one had appealed for humble, no one had seen it. The play had gone all the way up the other end, Australia had an attack and then that had finished. And then suddenly the refs getting the word from upstairs. And we’re thinking like, well, which, where is it? Like, what incident are they looking at? And of course, you know, it was handball it was but it just disrupts the flow of the game. The other thing that was super interesting is that there are about 2000 Chinese fans there. Now, let me tell you, they don’t all live in, in the Middle East. Apparently, some of them flew in as far away as as Ethiopia. My guess is that this is coordinated. They’re trying to you know…This is technically a China home game. Right? Right. So they’re trying to recreate some sort of home atmosphere, but they don’t want people going from China, because then they’ll have to risk them coming back to China and they got the quarantine restrictions and you know, the infection risk and all that sort of stuff. So they’re basically taking like Chinese from around the world and flying them in to, you know, to the Middle East for the John again. It’s kind of crazy.
Haig Balian
With the Chinese Men’s World Cup campaign floundering once again, what better time to take stock of football development in China. Rowan Simon’s is a familiar figure in football in China in 2009. He wrote Bamboo Goalposts: one man’s quest to teach the People’s Republic of China to love football. He’s also the chairman of club football, Beijing, club football operates the largest independent grassroots football network in the capital region. Rowan, thank you so much for coming on the China sports Insider PodCast.
Rowan Simons
Thanks very much. Great to be here.
Haig Balian
Back in 2015. You and Mark were on CCTVs sports scene to talk about China’s then-newly unveiled 50 Point reform plan for football, you know, you’re generally pretty positive about the reforms and want to play a clip from the appearance.
Rowan Simons
So the President has laid out a vision for what we should do, but actually to implement that is extremely hard. So we still have to deal with a lack of pitches. With the lack of coaching in schools. These are all very serious issues. But now, Minister of Education, Ministry of Land, other authorities at every level across China have to address the issues before they fail to address those issues. So once again, I think it’s a very historic move that portends very well for Chinese football, but the devil is in the detail and in the implementation.
Haig Balian
So there’s a lot there. So let’s talk about pitches. First. And for me, this is a personal issue, you know, my stepdaughter, who’s 15 She plays in this Youth League, and they play twice, twice a week in Shunyi, which is, you know, very far from where we live. And when we get there, the pitches are very small, and they play seven aside. So that’s, I guess, a long way of asking whether, you know, more pitches have been built to develop grassroots in China since you were on since 2015.
Rowan Simons
Yeah, I mean, that’s probably the best place to start. If you’re looking for positives. It’s one of the easy things to do. You know, there are hard things to do in football and there are easy things. The easy things usually involve money. So if you’ve got money to throw at things and football pitches is quite easy. And there are significantly more football pitches in the country than there were back then. So that’s been very positive. And not just public pitches, but in schools as well. But it’s much, much harder to build the software. So building the leagues and the communities that use those football pitches. I think, you know, also, some of the development of football pitches has not been very rational, a lot of it has has resulted in many pitches in one area and still no pitches in other areas. So those pictures that have been developed often have very close competitors. So neither of them operate at a profit. And of course, in northern China, the weather is a major impact. You know, in winter, probably about three months, pictures can’t be used. I think another thing to mention there is that, you know, fives and sevens pitches have been a very big development. But there’s actually, I think, less 11 or side pitches than there were before. And some of the cippic city operators that used to have 11 side pitches have now cut them up into fives and sevens. So yes, more people able to play pitches are closer to where they live, but probably not great in terms of developing China’s ability to compete at 11 asides, which is of course, what they’re using the World Cup,
Haig Balian
they won’t play seven a side at World Cup ever. That’s that’s just that’s just not gonna happen.
Rowan Simons
There’s futsal. But yeah, no workup, you really need to have 11. So I think, harder and harder to find 11 aside pitches
Mark Dreyer
Rowan, and do you think there’s too much of a focus on numbers here? I mean, all the stories you see written about it is, as you know, this many 10s of 1000s of pitches built in this many 10s of 1000s of academies and this many millions of buyers, you know, supposedly playing the game at different levels. Now, is it? Is it just the fact that these are targets that have never really achieved it? Or is it or is it something else?
Rowan Simons
Well, I mean, we wouldn’t really expect to see any results at international level for another decade or so if you’re starting with four-year-olds, and the average age is 24. And International, that’s 20 years away. So we’re only about five years in, you know, the campus football project has introduced football into schools, whereas always before sport wasn’t really part of the academic curriculum. So yes, that does mean millions of kids are getting exposed to football at an early age, which has got to be good. I think the issue there is that very few sports teachers are actually trained as football coaches. And that’s something that still needs to happen. So I think in a lot of cases, those sports teachers perhaps aren’t making the best use of the football time, in a progressive way. In terms of sort of general public, I think, yeah, more pitches in more convenient locations means more people are getting out to play. But it’s still quite a nice activity. You know, football, even, even at the smaller sided level, is quite hard to organize, you need a large bunch of players if you’re going to put together a team to play in a league, etc. Whereas I think basketball probably, you know, two against to three against three can be quite an easy way to get going. So football leads a lot more organization to be run at a competition level. So yeah, the numbers are good. I mean, I think there’s a, there’s a problem with that in as much as football really needs to grow from the grassroots, which I’ve been recruiting for for more than 20 years. But the campus football project immediately puts a stake back in, in control. If you’ve got kids who play football, a lot of time and efforts required to get into the matches, a lot of travel a lot of an expense, but campus football actually takes away responsibility from parents and puts it back on the state. So I think that’s not had a greater impact in terms of developing people’s own responsibility.
Mark Dreyer
Rohan, I distinctly remember when we were on that show in 2015, right after that the 50 Point Plan was announced. And you know, you’d reference you’ve been talking about this for years. And you said to me, this should feel like Christmas, basically everything that you had been preaching to anyone who listened it was was being announced in this plan. So what happened? Did, did you get your stocking full?
Rowan Simons
Yeah, no, I remember that very clearly. I think I said it’s Christmas and birthday all rolled into one. Yeah. It’s a great plan. It’s a 50 point plan. I mean, very detailed. The first part of it talks about the separation of the China Football Association from the government, which has been partially achieved. The second stage is about grassroots popularization of the game and the development of a small number of clubs who compete at the top level in Asia, which has been achieved, albeit with imported players. And then only the long term plans are there to about, you know, hosting the World Cup winning the World Cup, which I think was a mistake by international media just focusing on China wants to win the World Cup. So the plan was right, you know, football people to run football popularize the game, bring it into schools and develop from there. It hasn’t happened as the plan has laid out. And I think there are a number of reasons probably the biggest one is short termism. In China, government leaders tend to be in place for four years or five years. So they’re really looking for results over that timeframe. The business people, the tycoons that invested into football, also looking for a very quick return on investment, either financial or political. But as we mentioned a bit earlier, this is a 20 year plan a 30 year plan. So I don’t think many people in China have the patience to really do it right from the grassroots.
Haig Balian
Let me play another clip from that appearance. And you were asked Rowan, about whether you thought the reforms would work. And here’s what you have to say about that,
Rowan Simons
you know, if anything, it just gives people a feeling that football has an opportunity to become the people’s game, which it never has in China. Suddenly, within the plan, there are some very clear indications that the CFA must be opened up to stakeholders within the game. So suddenly, organizations like our own club football will be looking to play a more active role within the association.
Haig Balian
So has club football played a larger role in football development in China since that time?
Rowan Simons
well, we’ve rejoined the Beijing Football Association, which is, you know, the regulator, in charge of football in Beijing. And we’ve certainly made efforts to try and be more involved in some of the competitions they run. But more or less, I think we’re still pretty much an independent organization. We work with a lot of schools, those schools tend to be international schools, or bilingual schools or private schools, rather than state schools, we run our own league competition for about 100 teams. There’s about 25, teams from club football and the other 75 teams come from other clubs. So still, more or less, I think it’s an independent organization. But we are proud members of the Beijing FA, we attend their meetings when they’re held. And we’re always available to support the wider game, within the official system. It is sometimes hard, I think the Ministry of Education is quite tough for us. They’re obviously not that they are responsible for youth football in China, but they’re not directly linked into the football industry worldwide. So that’s been a bit of a tougher nut for us to crack. So I think more or less, it’s still independent, we rely on the support of schools and on the support of parents. But we are members and therefore, you know, open and active in terms of exchange within that. Within that forum.
Mark Dreyer
Rowan, you and I have talked on several times previously about, you know, the, in terms of independence, you know, the independence of the CFA, the Chinese Football Association, and the suppose it’s separation from the state, as mentioned in that in that 50 Point ban, and you earlier, you’d sort of said, well, it’s, you know, partly been achieved. Can you just expand on that a little bit? I mean, is it just a question of keeping FIFA happy? Because that’s in their statutes? You know, or is it? This is vital for the for the future growth of the game here in China?
Rowan Simons
Yeah, I’ve kind of like revised my position on that. I mean, before, I mean, way back before the reforms happened, I think I was probably the only person who is stating in in state media, that FIFA rules demand that the government remove itself from the CFA, but, you know, China is still China, isn’t it? So if you were to completely separate, then you lose all kinds of power, and all kinds of influence within society. So I think it does need a kind of like a hybrid model, a complete divorce leaves them with with no support from government at all, you know, that the top two people at the CFA are both from the private sector. Certainly the Secretary General has a background in sports. So I think, you know, some efforts have been made, but at the same time, there’s still a lot of interference. So it’s a tricky one, I can understand why a complete separation would make it hard. You know,
Haig Balian
it’s want to go back to one thing you mentioned earlier, coaches at the school level, not really using their time in the best possible way when they’re when they’re with their young players. What what are some of the things that you’ve seen that leads you to say that,
Rowan Simons
well, you know, football is a specialist subject isn’t, it’s not a PE class, I think without any kind of training at all. The teachers wouldn’t be equipped to teach progression. And also, perhaps, you know, a lot of the experiences that come out of the football system about games that you play with kids to encourage their interest, balanced between left and right foot, I still think there is still an issue in China about the attitude of coaches. Certainly at club football, everything’s about encouraging the kids being very upbeat, very positive. Everyone’s a winner, no one’s a loser. And I think they’re still amongst some of the Chinese coaches, perhaps the older ones. It’s worse situation still rather sort of military attitude, looking down at the kids shouting at the kids we have even seen in recent months, some, you know, awful reports of beating the kids. You know, this type of thing obviously has no place whatsoever. In football, I think there was, there is a change and younger coaches are getting better. I think just around the time of the reforms. There’s a magazine called Beijing football, which is a state-run magazine, and on its front cover, it featured a club football coach and one of our junior players. And the club football coach was kneeling. And the kid had his boot up on the coach’s knee, and the coach was like rubbing his boots, which is quite a famous scoring celebration. And that for me very much summed up the difference in attitude that the coaches could come down to the level of the kids talk to the kids as equals. And so that was also a bit of a symbolic change of recognizing that perhaps the European method of very positive, very approachable, fun, make it fun for everyone inclusive type of coaching program is more healthy for kids, but it can be hard for older coaches to to adapt to that,
Mark Dreyer
more generally, how would you say your optimism or pessimism has fluctuated? I suppose over the years? Do you still feel the same passion?
Rowan Simons
Yeah, I mean, the passion still there, for sure. I mean, I know football is a great solution. For China, for everyone, you know, not every child likes it. But if they do love it, it will be you know, the best time of their week is still the best time of my week when I got to play with some, some old friends. Not quite the speed before but still enjoy it immensely. So I think, you know, the principles are right, the whole world has learned those principles over the last 120 years, and China has to learn them too. I think I did an op-ed piece a couple of years ago, in which I said that more money has been wasted in these football reforms than in the history of sport. And I think that’s right, because a lot of the money or went in at the top end, you know, huge expense on foreign players on foreign coaches, a lot of money did go into infrastructure, a lot of the professional clubs, really improved their nutrition, rehabilitation services, etc. Some of it went to the right areas, but a huge amount has been wasted. The hope and Chinese football is the same as it was before, which is parents, a new generation of parents, they are obviously absolutely dedicated to their kids development. A lot of them really looking now at the traditional system, with its pressures of homework, etc. I mean, even the government now has, has recognized this with the double reduction policy, trying to give kids more freedom and space to play. So for us, always, the hope in Chinese football is from parents waking up to the benefits of the game.
Mark Dreyer
So that’s a really interesting comparison that you made that but it seems to me that until you know they still have the academic pressure with the gaokao, right, the university entrance exam. And so do you notice an age at which kids basically drop off? We spoke to John Howse who’s looking at hockey development, and he said at certain age, you know, 10-12, whatever development just drops off, like suddenly, shit gets real, basically, for the parents. And they’re like, Okay, let’s, let’s forget all these extracurricular stuff. And get back to the academics because we still have this exam pressure.
Rowan Simons
Yeah, there is a huge drop-off. Absolutely incredible cliff that hits it 11 or 12, when, as you say, when they go to middle school, we don’t see that amongst our international students as much. If they’re playing football regularly by then they’ll probably play it for the rest of their lives. But sure, for that for the Chinese kids, it drops off very, very significantly. This is again, your part of what we’re trying to do at club football is to build real love for the game for the whole for whole of your life. So that’s where our league system comes in. So we have three levels, you know, entry-level, a skills League, where the kids start to get a little bit of competitive practice, and they’re moving into leagues where they’re playing and regular competition. So it’s all about progressing the kids through the stages and obviously trying to bring the parents along with but that’s a massive, massive problem, as you say in ice hockey in all sports. In China, Yeah, a huge drop-off once they hit middle school, but you know, now we see some reports that the gaokao and some of the other exams will include sports points within the total. And I think even some provinces that are increasing the percentage of sports points towards exams, so that that should help as well.
Haig Balian
Can I play one more clip?
Mark Dryer
He loves a bit of media.
Haig Balian
I love media. So you were both asked, in that, in that interview, or you were both asked whether you thought China would ever host the World Cup. And Mark, you pointed out that FIFA is rules prohibit any Asian country from hosting again until 2034. After Qatar,
Mark Dreyer
I think since then they’ve slightly given themselves an out but things have potentially changed since then just throw that in, but surely carry on. Okay.
Haig Balian
So at the time 2034 was another 19 years away. And Mark, you made the point, that’s probably enough time to get a team that’s not going to embarrass themselves. Rowan, here is what you said,
Rowan Simons
Yes, I think you know, the World Cup has to come. I in fact, think that China World Cup would benefit from FIFA, deciding it many, many years ahead. And then China will start with kids of the age that would be able to participate in that world cup. So woke up as eight years ahead, means they will focus on 14-year-old kids is not going to work a World Cup throughout 2034, but agreed much earlier, than you would see China actually implementing a system from birth. And that’s what we really need. So the longer the lead time to that World Cup, the better.
Haig Balian
So I’m going to ask you to speculate, if FIFA announced tomorrow that China is awarded the 2034 World Cup, is that enough time to develop the kind of talent you need to be competitive.
Rowan Simons
Just trying to calculate, we’re in 2021… 34. So 13 years later, 11-year-olds, so that means kids who are 11. And therefore the answer is no. Because if you start with kids that are 11, their competitors in that world cup will have been playing since the age of four. So on average, they’re going to have about seven years headstart on the Chinese kid. So I mean, that’d be better than nothing. But yeah, it’s gonna be longer than that.
Mark Dreyer
You talked earlier about the cycles of officials and so on? Who’s going to be who’s still going to be in those positions of power when the World Cup actually arrives?
Rowan Simons
Yes, that’s a fair point. I don’t know, maybe there’ll be a bigger sort of national drive. If they had that type of a lead time, then the whole country. I mean, then there is no point focusing on your 16-year-olds who will be too old for the World Cup. Right. So So perhaps, you know, people will be bigger than themselves and stand up and support a nationwide plan. But I don’t see that happening. I think politics at FIFA probably isn’t that advanced either. So probably be the normal seven or eight years ahead. But you know, 20 years has already been wasted. I always say to, to those of old-timers I meet and I’ve been talking about this for 20 years, and we’ve been through four or five, six cycles of, of short term leaders. If they started back when, when I first said it, we would now be there with a generation who are representing China but but you know, those opportunities have been missed in missed and missed again. The still an extent, you know that they just go around the wheel in the 1950s, they sent all the young kids or the youth team to Hungary, because Hungary was a pretty strong team at that time in the 80s. They sent them to Brazil. And now they’re sending them to France and Portugal. But the idea that you could take 16-year-olds who are not good enough to play in Europe, and then send them to Europe, to private schools, in the kind of dream that maybe one of them would find is scoring boots is not going to happen, but they go round and round in a circle because at least that type of policy has the outside potential of maybe working. Whereas my call for full generational change, as you say absolutely will not work for the leader who’s in position today. So they tend to say Well, thanks very much and piss off now.
Mark Dreyer
Rowan let’s look at a more short-term realistic proposal barring a miracle. China’s not going to qualify for 2022 the Qatar World Cup but with the expanded World Cup in 2026 There is a realistic chance so Okay, say China gets in it’s not going to do well but it does have that glory you know that that that that national passion and getting people around that how much could just qualifying for the World Cup in only the second time does history how much can that do for the game?
Rowan Simons
In general terms, that would be, that’d be rather good. Wouldn’t it? China would be delighted to take part, but I think within the football community, they are all very, already very skeptical about these things. So there’ll be a sort of, a lot of backlash saying we only got in because they increased the numbers.
And then when we got there, we still didn’t score any goals or, so I think people are quite cynical. About methods of getting into the world cup when perhaps under a traditional system, you wouldn’t have achieved it like with the foreign players, et cetera. But sure. I think, if China did make it, so that would be yeah, it’d be a big thing. The world cups are obviously always a huge thing in China. So to see China there yeah, I think in the end they would embrace it. They would be happy and delighted to have joined the party, even though it would have been a much lower entry barrier. I think, you talk about China hosting the world cup.
I still think that they will be reticent about doing that because of the potential for loss of face.. Do they really want to host the world cup and where they auto automatically qualify and then get beaten in all three games that would almost be intolerable. So I don’t know whether or not they would make the decision to host it whiskey.
They could obviously do very easily and very well, whether it might be. Be too risky in terms of the, the loss of face.
Haig Balian
Have you been watching the qualifiers?
Rowan Simons
Yes, I have. I’m really conflicted when China plays on one side and I’d love to see them do well, but on the other side if they did well and got into the world cup, that would be great for football development in China.
But then on the other side, if they were by fluke or, by some method managed to make it into it, then there’s a real danger that everyone would say, ah, problem solved. The reforms have been a success. We no longer lead to do any reforms. Whereas China still needs very deep grassroots reforms and a different view of the people towards football as a participation, sport and clubs as part of civic society.
So I conflicted if they lose, I think, great. Everyone’s going to be in the doldrums. There’s still chance that reform might take place. And then, on the flip side it would be great if China made it in. So yeah, watch it with her. Two faces
Mark Dreyer
Rowan. You talked about the risk there and the pressures involved for those in charge.
At the high levels of football. The president here of course, is known as a big soccer fan and he has driven in at least in part this football drive that we’ve seen over the last few years, there’s two sides to that coin, right? It obviously brings a lot of increased attention to the game and get some support, but then of course, the pressure to succeed and the fear about.
Where do you come out on that? Is this generally a good thing or is it there’s too much of that? The risks and the fear associated as well?
Rowan Simons
I think it has to be a good thing. A president who supports football, who has led the development of a long-term plan, which makes complete sense.
Forced by his own love of the game, everyone in China to love the game and think about the game and care about the game. That’s got to be positive, isn’t it? But yeah, it’s the implementation again? It’s immediately after the reforms came in is what can I do to show presidency that I’m a fan that I’m a supporter.
So they bought the clubs. They brought in the foreign players, they won the Asian champions league. They built pitches. All these things can be done with money. But the long-term. Changing of attitudes to embrace civic society, to embrace communities and clubs and enjoyment and love of the game at the grassroots is a much harder thing to do.
So I just come back again and say, it’s all about the parents. As a parent, They are very highly educated now, and I’m very positive about their kids’ development and the more and more of them are turning to sport as a very healthy way for their kids, not just physical health, but mental health and sociability in psychology, all of these things can benefit.
So in the end it will be a middle-class. Which is ironic is, in the rest of the world, it was a worker’s game, always rather than a middle-class game in China. It’s going to be a middle-class game that, that people are looking for quality of life and turn towards the game. It can’t be forced from the top down.
It has to come from the bottom up. So I think in terms of what we see at club football, we, when we started, we were entirely foreign. A hundred percent foreigners now we’re about 80% Chinese. A significant numbers of Chinese. Who are opening up to the benefits of football as a participation sport.
And that for me is always, the hope is still is the hope. And, seeing those kids out there enjoying the game is what keeps us going or glad we could end on a high note.
Haig Balian
Rowan Simons is the chairman of club football, Beijing, and the author of bamboo goalposts one man’s quest to teach the people’s Republic of China to love football.
He joined us from his home in Beijing. Thanks Rowan.
That was Rowan Simons. We talked to him earlier this week. What I thought was really interesting where some of the parallels between what he was saying and what John Howse was saying last week on the show about hockey parents and about some of the abuse that, that he’s seen in the coaching ranks or equity, what do you think.
Mark Dreyer
Yeah, absolutely. It’s, I guess it’s not surprising that some of the same things do exist. And again, we don’t want to dwell on the negatives. I think both, both John and Rowan have said that things have improved over the time they’ve been here, but some of this, or, more military coaching style, that’s been instilled in the older coaches, unfortunately, still lingers.
Even though it is improving, it was funny because. When he finished, I was about to say, I don’t want to, I want to finish on a negative note. I think it’s sometimes too easy when you look. At Chinese football, even, many people don’t speak to you, passionately foreign or Chinese wants Chinese football to succeed.
But some of the missteps that have been taken make it hard to do that. And it can be quite frustrating, but I was going to say, what’s the one thing that you’re most optimistic about just to, turn it around back to earlier and let’s always try and be hopeful and optimistic and positive.
And he already did that. I think. It’s the love of the game, not everyone loves it but, billions of people do love the sport. There’s a reason why it’s called, the beautiful game, the global game. It’s awesome. That’s why Rowan and literally billions of other people have got into the sport and hopefully, and we all still hope.
I think that can be the case here,
Haig Balian
That’s the show this week, if you like the show, the best way to help out is to follow. Ever you listen to podcast, rate us, leave a comment. You can find us at supchina.com/podcast or search for China Sports Insider podcast, wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you want to get in touch, the best way is probably Twitter.
Mark. Where can people find you?
Mark Dreyer
Yeah, Twitter DreyerChina. That’s D R E Y E R. China. And yeah, we’d love to hear from people. Tell us what you think about the show. What do you want us to talk about? It’s been really encouraging to get some positive feedback so far, but things you don’t like, things you do.
If you want to come on the show, Hey we’ll see what you have to say. Any feedback gratefully received?
Haig Balian
Absolutely. And I at twitter.com/haigbalian we will see you next week.
